Mat Vogels (00:10)

Hey everybody. Welcome to another episode of fun raising. am here with Arthur from first in, and we are going to go through the fundraising gauntlet today. for those of you that haven't listed the episodes before we interview top early stage investors to pick their brains on all the questions that you as first time fundraising founders want to know.

​

about the fundraising process. All the questions I'm gonna ask today were nominated and up voted by founders in the exact same position. So Arthur, thank you for jumping on today. It's gonna be a little bit rapid fire, but ⁓ I think a lot of founders are gonna appreciate the insight and wisdom that you can pass along. Let's start a little bit about the fund itself. Tell us about First In.

​

Arthur (00:52)

Certainly. Thank you, Matt, and thank you for having me on. Excited to chat this today. So the firm name's First In. We manage three funds now, and we are currently investing out of our third fund, which is actually an SBIC-licensed fund. So we're partnered with the SBA and the Office of Strategic Capital at the Pentagon to be investing out of Fund 3. The firm...

​

First in was founded in 2020 by my partner, Rennie McPherson. He raised Fund One, myself and a few others joined as venture partners since we were in roles elsewhere in the technology space. And their focus really was on security technology from the very beginning. Rennie was coming from a cybersecurity background along with some national service in the Marine Corps. I also spent a number of years in the Marine Corps and then went on to more the aerospace and defense.

​

technology side of the industry and following fund one, when it was, you know, with the success of that fund and, then having invested most of it, I, I came on board, joined Renny as a partner, to raise fund two and now we're on fund three. our average check size out of fund three is approximately three to $5 million. That's our range. And the intent is to lead seed rounds.

​

That's the main difference from our prior two funds. Our prior two funds were designed to be able to lead pre-seed rounds and participate in some seed rounds. This fund that we're currently investing out of is designed to lead those seed rounds and then participate potentially in series A's. So yeah, we're aiming to make 20 to 25 investments out of fund three.

​

Mat Vogels (02:23)

Awesome.

​

Arthur (02:29)

You know, I mentioned the security technology focus. What that means essentially is really any kind of technology or product company that touches the security mission, if you will, both for commercial and government enterprises. know, our mission here really is to empower those entrepreneurs who are securing our nation. So that can be anything from pure software, commercially oriented cybersecurity SaaS, all the way through defense specific

​

hardware and everything in between.

​

Mat Vogels (02:58)

I love it, that's perfect. Thank you for the background on that. Some of the questions we got for VC specifically is a little bit of a peek behind the curtain. And two questions that are kind of back to back here. One is, what is your favorite part about the job and being a VC? And what is your least favorite part about the job?

​

Arthur (03:15)

Right on. Yeah, so easy question in my view. The favorite parts are absolutely connecting with and building relationships with founders. This evening actually, I'm going up to visit one of our portfolio companies in Orange County. They're having an event up there. Just the kind of deeply aligned relationships that we've been developing, having both served

​

in a military capacity and having that kind of end user background, if you will, of security related products, all the way through having then following that experience, having then helped build these kinds of companies and been on the same side as the table as a lot of these founders. Both Randy and I were very early in our respective cybersecurity, data and AI, and aerospace and defense companies. That's where we come from.

​

Right? So we absolutely understand a lot of the challenges and opportunities that they face because we invest so early. That's, that's where the alignment comes from. Right? We, we are shoulder to shoulder with the founders from the very first, some of the very first checks that those companies raise the least fart least favorite part of the job. ⁓ easy, easy answers, audits, compliance, you know, all the, all the different back office.

​

Mat Vogels (04:25)

Hahaha

​

Arthur (04:26)

Because we're a very small firm, right? We're obviously emerging managers, ⁓ just getting started with our third fund. We have very specifically kept it small in terms of the firm size. We have resources that we rely on for the specific kind of fund admin and auditing functions, as well as internal operations. But nevertheless, even though it might be our least favorite part of the job, we think it's important.

​

We're fiduciaries of other people's capital. That's what we do as venture managers. And so it's absolutely critical that we are deeply involved in the day-to-day operations and compliance of the firm. We take that very seriously, but yeah, not nearly as fun as getting to build relationships with founders.

​

Mat Vogels (05:09)

Definitely not. You kind of answered another question too, which I think was spot on, is a lot of founders, don't realize how much goes into the operational side of a fund. They just assume that it's writing checks, going to parties and those things. But there's unfortunately a lot of operational things that happen behind the scenes that make it a little bit less fun for sure.

​

Arthur (05:27)

Yeah. mean, that's, look, at the end of the day, we're, we're a financial firm, right? Along with every other venture capital, manager in fact, in fact, actual, the act, SEC definition is we're exempt advisors, right? So we may not be RIA is registered investment advisors. We're exempt advisors, but nevertheless, like that is, you know, there's a whole raft of very serious kind of SEC laws that apply to, this world, because we are managing other people's capital. we're obviously investing alongside with our own capital.

​

But that's really where the leverage comes from, right? For venture to be able to finance some of these early stage companies.

​

Mat Vogels (06:01)

All right, let's jump into the fundraising process itself. The way we like to break these down are three different phases. One, how do founders go from, I don't know anything about VC, I have an idea, to getting in the room and meeting with you, to then crushing that meeting, to hopefully lead to a second meeting and then beyond, and then the third phase being, how do they push it over the finish line and actually close a round of capital?

​

For feedback that you could give to founders today, they're in that first process. They're just getting started with maybe even the research side. What's some advice that you would give to a founder in building up that list of 20 to 30 VCs that they should reach out to? What should they be looking for in those VCs?

​

Arthur (06:39)

That very first outreach, if you will, really should leverage, and this may sound trite, because obviously not everyone has the same kind of network that I'm going to talk about, but relying on some kind of personal or professional network for those one or two degree remove types introductions is really useful as a founder. And it's not, again, it's not some kind of

​

nepotism type thing. It's, it's just a funk. It's being able to prove, look, you have enough folks invested in your immediate circle, invested in what you want to build that they're willing to go that extra step and make an introduction on your behalf or reach out to someone that may know somebody. And that's, that's a key signal because that's essentially it models in a lot of ways what founders are going to be doing for the next six, 12, 18 months, which is founder led selling.

​

Right. So whatever the product is, and obviously, you know, we here at First Center are focused on commercial and government enterprises as customers, but this applies to consumers as well. Like that, that founder, is going to have a very large role in, monetizing whatever the product is. And so being able to essentially model that in an outreach perspective for venture capital firms is, is a great signal. Right. And, and, and, and also

​

beneficial to that founder and getting used to what that is like. that is a great way to get in the room is having those kind of warm introductions because, Matt, you at Black Flag are no stranger to this. There's no shortage of kind of cold in bounds, just anyone with an idea. Sure, these days it's very easy to get that idea into somebody's inbox, right? But

​

that's, you know, if the obstacle to that is so low, you just, that venture capital firm may not just have the bandwidth to go through all those in detail. So any kind of additional emphasis or highlight to that initial introduction is huge.

​

Mat Vogels (08:33)

Yeah, I mean, honestly, I think that'll end up being 90 % plus of all the responses are trying to find a way to get some sort of warm introduction. Obviously reaching out cold and doing those are sometimes inevitable. But it's if you can somehow find a way into the ecosystem, it is it certainly makes a huge difference. But let's say that they've they've gotten in front of you, they're in your inbox, you're opening up what typically is a pitch deck or a memo or something. Is there any piece

​

Arthur (08:43)

Mm-hmm.

​

Mat Vogels (09:00)

Maybe the best way to think about it is a particular slide. Maybe it's an insight, but as you open up that pitch deck, you're scrolling through, is there something that you are looking for specifically that would get you excited to maybe reply to that email or reach back out to that founder, schedule that first meeting. So if it's a slide or an insight or something that you're looking for, what is that most important thing or maybe one or two most important things?

​

Arthur (09:21)

sure, this is going to be a very

​

Marine Corps answer, but it is the campaign plan. And what is a campaign plan? A campaign, it's not just a, here's a set of goals, right, for the next six months, 12 months, or what have you. A campaign is a thoughtful approach to like, by doing this next thing, it's going to unlock this next thing, and it's going to unlock this other thing. And having seen a founder kind of think through that.

​

Mat Vogels (09:28)

Hmm

​

Arthur (09:46)

in sequence and also having shown that, whatever the first one or two steps are that they're either completed or they're in progress, that's a great signal that, okay, this isn't just let's try to throw a bunch of things against the wall and see what sticks and then we'll follow that up. mean, that, you know, of course, you know, there's always the hasty way to do it and there's deliberate way to do it and, and Rincourt is good at both, right? But at least having a directional plan.

​

you know, that covers a number of different aspects of the startup, not simply, you know, we built the alpha version and then the beta version and then so on and so forth, but actually, but then also how are you building the team? How are you bringing this to market, et cetera? That's a, that's a great slide to have in there. ⁓ you know, one of our strongest performing portfolio companies, you know, part of the reason that, you know, we almost immediately, built conviction in making the investment was cause you know, this was a, they were

​

a three month old startup, but already they had a campaign how to get to their first program of record, right? With, when this obviously specifically a defense company and you know, with, with military customers. So the equivalent to that kind of long range thoughtful plan is, is huge.

​

Mat Vogels (10:56)

Is there a slide or something that you feel like founders are almost always over indexing on that you can maybe give them some peace of mind and think, yeah, it's maybe not as important as you think.

​

Arthur (11:06)

You know,

​

the market sizing is always, and of course, I'm sure you can ask 10 VCs and get 10 different answers, but I think we all know market sizing is kind of like, you know, it's bit of a thumb in the air, finger in the air type exercise. You can make it pretty much whatever size you want. It's important to be able to explain what your market is.

​

But yeah, having like a detailed analysis of like, well, first, you know, first, this is our, you know, addressable, this is our initial addressable market. And then the, you know, you know, going on from there to a total, to to a TAM, okay, great. But yeah, that's not, that's not what we're highlighting as, as the, you know, the reason we're going to make an investment. For example, I mean, we're very much of the school where, you know, if you can dominate a small market,

​

Mat Vogels (11:51)

completely agree.

​

Arthur (11:54)

rate like that, then that puts you in a position to make a whole series of decisions and being able to open a number of doors to much larger markets from there, even though that initial market may have struck you or struck another investor as fairly small.

​

Mat Vogels (12:08)

Yeah, that was a great answer. One of the questions that we get, it was very common and it's probably because they're getting some pressure and some feedback as they've shared it, but how important is a well-designed pitch deck or a well-designed memo or something or other? Because obviously we get hundreds of these a month. In your opinion, does a well-designed pitch deck matter or not really?

​

Arthur (12:27)

Yes, ⁓ I will say, I will

​

slightly change what, like the way you're phrasing it, a clear pitch deck is what matters. I would absolutely index the clarity of thought as opposed to, which in some sense, like good design, that's what it does. Right. And so, yeah, a very clear and beautiful, I guess, like graphically beautiful pitch deck. Great. Right. But that pitch deck could be

​

Mat Vogels (12:37)

Yeah, there we go.

​

Arthur (12:54)

black text on white, if it's a clear argument for making the investment, nailed it. Doesn't need to have a single picture in there as far as I'm concerned. You know, we, yeah, and I'm sure you see this too, right? You sometimes get these pitch decks which have a lot of you know, colors and whatnot or graphics, but it's just not necessarily clear what the company is going to do, how it's going to do it, who's doing it, et cetera.

​

Answer the five W's, right? There's another military-ism, right? The five W's, who, what, where, when, and why. And then you add on the how. So yeah, if you're very succinctly, concisely, and clearly going through those, great.

​

Mat Vogels (13:19)

completely agree.

​

Let's hear it, five W's, yep.

​

Yep. Perfect. So let's say they've, they've done all the things that you just said. They've got your attention. You're excited. You have the meeting schedule. It's on the books. What are some of the things that as you as a VC go into these meetings, are there green flags or things that you're looking for in that first meeting with the founders? Maybe it's a characteristic or a trait, something that they say or ask, what are you looking for in that first meeting to help build conviction and then move to the next one?

​

Arthur (13:56)

Yeah, this is a slightly harder

​

question in my view, only because you see true talent, like great talent can be expressed, in my view, can be expressed in whole number of ways, right? So it could take any one of those forms, like brilliant questions, or again, like clarity of thought and explanation and discussion, know, energy, responsiveness, what have you, you know, a number of those or a combination of those, that's all great. And we've seen...

​

seen that take different forms. It's the converse that's usually all similar. I'm sure you'll get to the red flags question, but that oftentimes, I'm sure you hear the same kind of red flags from every venture capital firm. The commonalities there are greater. But yeah, in particular for our view, this is another phrase which has become popularized, but founder market fit is huge.

​

Right? Like, why are you the one to attack this problem? And I think a great example of this, you know, we see it in the advanced manufacturing space, which currently is kind of like the wild, it's wide open, right? There's a whole number of different strategies that are being undertaken, you know, product angles on the market, what have you. Like it's an TBD on what ends up working, what not.

​

But nevertheless, okay, why this team, you know, for example, specifically with hardware, like, why is it this team that can build the thing as opposed to some other team? You know, that to us, like a very convincing, clear explanation of that is a huge green flag.

​

Mat Vogels (15:33)

You kind of hit on the next question being on the red flag, you touched on it. Do you double down a little bit of what are some of the things that you end up leaving halfway through?

​

Arthur (15:35)

Yeah, yeah, mean, this is 1000 % anything that's

​

just like some kind of misdirection or like deliberately not answer, you know, we'll ask a question or, and we'll get an answer that's not to the question, you know, because there's just this sense of, you know, not necessarily something to hide, but just not having, you know, not wanting to address things, right, is a huge red flag.

​

You know, we often see in terms of leading up to an initial meeting or following an initial meeting, you know, just unpreparedness, huge red flag, right? You know, just not getting back. mean, the number of times that we've ended an initial meeting with like, okay, we'll follow up some materials and then like a week and a half go by, like forget about it. Right? You know, another truism, you know, time kills all deals. And that is one.

​

that's a thousand percent accurate for especially venture capital firms, especially ones that are receiving lots of early stage inbounds. Yeah, if it's taking you quite some time to get back to an investor with the materials you said you were going to have, not a great look.

​

Mat Vogels (16:43)

Yeah, the time kills all deals is, should be framed in every founder's mind. And it works both ways, obviously, but it's a good one. Is there a question that you think founders should ask? Not a question that you as a VC like when they ask and it's a positive or a green flag, more that you think that founders broadly should have a deeper understanding and should ask some of these questions of the VCs in that first conversation, if there's time available.

​

Arthur (16:46)

right. Yes.

​

Yeah, I, we

​

really like being pushed on our thinking on a given sector. Right. And, and, and look, that's, this is maybe it's just, you know, you know, idiosyncratic to us, as far as, know, us really liking to get our minds around a given product market strategy, a given, you know, sector of a, of a particular market. it's, I think it's too common.

​

it's, it's easy to adopt conventional thinking on the, on, on the part of investors about a given sector. And so if that's not necessarily that that's oftentimes a disconnect, an area of disconnect with a founding team. So founding team, part of what can make a startup an incredible success is taking a very unconventional approach, obviously to, ⁓ to, ⁓ to a problem. So yeah, I think the questions where it's like, well, what do you, you know, that are in that vein, right?

​

thoughts on this particular market, what do we see is working, what's not, stuff like that, it really helps, I think, both parties understand, like, could this be a good fit?

​

Mat Vogels (18:05)

And I think that the other thing, the other question too is what do you need to do in order to get to the next meeting? Which is maybe the last question here. Is there something that founders just absolutely need to do during that first meeting to make sure that they don't drop the ball and that they can land that second meeting? You mentioned what you look for, but are there any tactical things that a founder can make sure, a checklist or anything?

​

to help make sure they can get to that next meeting.

​

Arthur (18:31)

Yeah.

​

Again, just responsiveness with some of the materials or asks following an initial meeting. A huge one is really explaining...

​

For our particular, this again may be specific to us, but part of the actual kind of skill set that we bring to an initial investment and early stage investment is go to market experience. So we probably, not I say over index, but we're particularly sensitive to and appreciative of, here's how we can leverage, by the looks like here's who's in your advisory network. And these are the kind of...

​

you know, potential customers in your ecosystem. Here's a very clear ask as to what would be, you know, potentially mutually beneficial as you're a diligent seeing this opportunity. You know, here's, you know, could we get an introduction to so-and-so? That kind of initiative and that kind of, you know, level of analysis is a great indicator for to set up a following meeting.

​

Mat Vogels (19:28)

Yep, I love it. All right, let's say that everything's gone well, the meeting went well, and you're excited to move forward. Could you give a little glimpse of what the diligence process looks like for first-end and what founders can expect in that phase of the cycle?

​

Arthur (19:40)

Sure, yeah. So it's

​

fairly rapid for us, right? Or can be, in the sense that because we are a small team and we have deliberately designed it that way such that the investment committee is two people, me and Renny, and we have a number of advisors who are subject matter experts in a variety of fields within security technology. We'll set up, following an initial discussion, meeting, call,

​

We oftentimes move very quickly to setting up a call with one of those advisors and ourselves to really kind of click a couple levels deeper into the product, into the technology behind the product, and also into the go-to-market strategy. That can all happen within a week, right? So we do those two, and sometimes they're combined into the same meeting, sometimes they're separate, but those two then like more deep dives into product and then go to market.

​

uh, is essentially the phase two of our diligence. And then the third phase prior to, getting to, to a decision, uh, can be an in-person meeting. can be, uh, uh, essentially, you know, um, you know, a follow-up essentially to the, to the first call that we had re regarding the strategy, uh, a review of the pipeline and really kind of, guess, a specific more strategic discussion.

​

around how we're going to take that particular product to market. And that's really it. mean, those are the three stages for us. Alongside that, we're doing our own internal research on a particular market. We're coming to a view, if we don't already have one, on what the opportunity could look like. And that's concurrent. But yes, all of that can happen fairly quickly on our end. Or given the... This is something I think that...

​

that founders, you know, just to try to offer something maybe they don't often hear, there's a real, like the best fundraising cycles happen with a given strategy in mind as to here are the venture capital firms that could lead, here's ones that could be follow on checks, here's where they're at in their fund cycle, here's maybe they're under pressure to deploy in the sense that, you know, that

​

they haven't written a lot of checks and it's been a few years or maybe they're just getting started. So that doesn't exist. Right. So putting together again, a campaign plan, not just for your company, but also for the fundraise, can be a really smart thing to do. And it's something that we would appreciate in a sense, sometimes given the deal dynamics, and ex and talking about the deal dynamic and explaining those, sometimes that means, Hey, we can slot in.

​

a little later in this process, right? Or maybe it's good for us to take the lead very early. having that kind of discussion in the subsequent meetings, the initial one, and obviously the founder having a plan or at least the, what's the phrase, like the concepts of a plan or whatever, that can be huge.

​

Mat Vogels (22:32)

Yeah. Are there any common mistakes that you see? Is it the opposite of that? Is it the not having a plan or anything? Are there other mistakes that you've seen founders make during this phase, the diligence phase, pushing it over the finish line phase that end up maybe having you lose conviction or that you've seen deals fall through? Anything founders should be looking for in this phase that they should not be doing?

​

Arthur (22:49)

Yeah, no, it's, it's in a lot of the, you

​

know, I guess some of the more common mistakes we see is taking, ⁓ not necessarily incorrect, but a non, I guess a non act. ⁓ this is going to be intentional. Usually it's not intentional. It just works out this way. Just not having a very accurate or clear picture of what those deal dynamics are. Right. It's like,

​

Hey, we've got X amount of interest, we're closing in two weeks or whatever, and then okay, a week goes by, but it's actually not closing in two weeks. So all of a sudden, it's essentially the poker game of a deal. And not that that's how it should be, but that's just a sense of, for us, it's just communication. It's just like, we're all grownups here, just what is it you want to do? When do you want to do it? How's it coming? The more clarity we can have on that process.

​

Mat Vogels (23:21)

Mm-hmm.

​

Arthur (23:38)

then the more responsive we can be on where we stand. And so not having, know, kind of treating it like a poker game essentially, sometimes it works, often it doesn't. And, you know, that's up to a founder to decide, but ⁓ that to us can often lead to just like, actually it's not going to line up in terms of where, you know, timing or conviction.

​

Mat Vogels (23:58)

Yeah, it's a nice problem to have, but something that good deals, good founders will stumble into is when their round gets oversubscribed, which sounds like a nice problem to have, but when you do have it, it is actually a problem and can be very, very stressful. Do you have any advice for founders as maybe they're in a phase where they kind of have to pick and choose who they're allowing in or not? Are there any things they should index on characteristics of the fund?

​

Yeah, any any attributes that they should look for and who they let in and who they unfortunately have to leave off the cap table

​

Arthur (24:29)

Yeah, would say absolutely.

​

This is where the founder diligence is huge, Asking for like who else has that investor invested in? How have those deals gone? What's those founders' opinions, right? Whether it's getting those kinds of references, getting that kind of information is I think a very useful step for a founder to ultimately determine who are the folks that you want to be basically going to battle with.

​

Right? Because that's what this is. mean, this is not for the faint of heart, as we all know, who have been in this industry. Right? That is a very critical decision as to who you're going to have on your left and right side as you're going into this experience. And so then, obviously, what's their demonstrated track record of success? Just like we're looking for founder market fit, yeah, investor market fit is an equally valid decision to make.

​

Mat Vogels (25:22)

Yep. All right. The round is closed. Everybody's celebrating. A lot of founders don't make it to this phase, but can you give a glimpse of what it looks like for maybe for first in after they've closed the round? What's that relationship like with with you and the founder?

​

Arthur (25:35)

Yeah, we like to think

​

of it, It's particularly me, I think, you know, in the sense, it's like texting your, one of your closest advisors, right, or mentors. Like that's how we essentially approach it. I mean, literally just two minutes ago, I'm sorry, I to tell him I'll call him back. But yeah, like any time of day, any time of night, it's, you know, that quick outreach. Hey, what do you think of this? Or, by the way, do know so-and-so? Like stuff like that.

​

Mat Vogels (25:54)

Yeah.

​

Arthur (26:01)

That's what we feel is the most productive. We're not on obviously your core founding team and employee team, but I think investors should be as accessible as one of those supporting elements. You've got the main element, you've got the unit pushing forward toward the goal. We like to be considered as a

​

one of those critical supporting elements right alongside. And so, yeah, I feel like if an investor is not up for that and, this is like, I mean, again, doing your, doing your investor diligence, this is where it matters. Right.

​

If, you know, if there's, if there's a bunch of partners on a team, then it probably makes sense that they've invested in a couple hundred different firms and they can cover down on that realistically. Great. You know, if, you know, if it's, if it's the other way around, then, you know, just getting a sense of like, is what, is the level of, of interaction that we can have because there may be a whole ton of portfolio companies and in that time that team may be spread then. So

​

We're very cognizant of that. That's why we run concentrated strategies because we're a small team. By that, mean, we don't write a lot of checks. It's a smaller number of portfolio companies that we invest in. again, we're very active with those. But yeah, we're not here to solve existential problems with a team in the sense of we like to think that if a founder is looking for someone to help

​

kind of build the, you know, like essentially a co-founder, they should find a co-founder, right? If they're relying on investors for that, they're going to get disappointed because that's what investors are looking for, for the founder to do, right? So you need to be very clear in the expectations. And this is great that you're asking this question, right? Very clear in those expectations, right? Ultimately, and the way we view it is, and this is why we were deeply, profoundly like founder oriented in terms of leadership.

​

of the board, of the company, et cetera, that's founders of the decision maker, ultimately. And so, someone's in command, it's gotta be that founder or co-founding team. And we're here to take marching orders to a large extent in terms of where that founding team wants to go because we made the investment. So, I don't know, that's a long answer to a short question, but yeah, a few different aspects of how we think.

​

Mat Vogels (28:21)

That's a good one.

​

Yeah, last question. Is there a common mistake that founders make? They've just closed their round. Is there a common mistake right after fundraising that you see founders make that they should look out for?

​

Arthur (28:31)

Not moving fast enough. hands down, period, end of sentence. Speed is your only advantage. Again, I'm not the first person to say that, but I have just seen it bear out again and again.

​

Mat Vogels (28:34)

Mm-hmm.

​

Arthur (28:44)

If you think that closing that round is kind of like great, like you hit the finish line, like, you know, we can kind of coast for a bit, that is absolutely the wrong answer, right? Because you're just, you will have momentum at that point. And if you could just kind of let it fizzle out a bit, it's hard to get that momentum back up again, right? So that closing of the funding, that's the starting.

​

right? And by the way, that's also when the investors are like ears wide open as to like, let's go, like what's next, let's go. Right? so take advantage of that. You know, founders that don't take advantage of that, that, that's a very common and potentially problematic mistake.

​

Mat Vogels (29:24)

Yeah. Arthur, thank you so much. There's some great nuggets in there. Thank you for walking founders through this otherwise confusing and not so fun process. I appreciate it. Is there any last words of advice or ⁓ where can folks find you or follow you or any last bit of information that you want to share?

​

Arthur (29:40)

Sure, yeah, well quickly, you

​

we're on LinkedIn and X and all the various internet stuff, but yeah, it really comes back to that relationship building to the extent that this is something we're talking to people more about. Don't wait, don't wait until you've started a company and you've...

​

hired a couple of or like found a couple of co-founders and, and, and you're now you really got a rate like in a sense, start raising before you found a company, right? Like not actually, but, but start building those kinds of relationships. And those can, those talk about warm introduction. mean, a warm introduction that occurs before a company's even started. Holy cow. Like you, you're a lap ahead of, of your peers.

​

So that's often something that folks don't quite realize or talk about much, but just something to keep in mind.

​

Mat Vogels (30:32)

Arthur, thank you so much. We'll have to do maybe a round two of this in the future, but thank you again. I'll see you around the San Diego area and we'll talk again soon. All right, bye.

​

Arthur (30:34)

Sure.

​

Yes, indeed. Take care, Matt. Thank you. Bye.

​